Pathfinders

Pathfinders 4 - Esther.mp3

Monty: [00:00:11] Hello everyone. My name is Andrew Montlake.

Monty: [00:00:13] You can call me Monty, and I'm delighted to welcome you to the fourth episode of Pathfinders.

Monty: [00:00:20] The Pathfinder podcast is all about the journeys we take in business and in our life. It's about the fact that the destination is not the be all and end all. It's the paths we take along the way.

Monty: [00:00:31] That is a real journey. It is this that defines us and makes us who we are today.

Monty: [00:00:37] I've always loved talking to people, and in doing so over the years and especially so recently, have found that many have remarkable stories to tell, stories that we can all learn from and relate to that will make you look differently at that person. When you learn about their real journey rather than the one we all assume. So I'm setting out to meet real people who've inspired me, both within the mortgage, property and finance industry and outside it to hear their stories and learn from the paths they have taken the successes and failures that have led them to become who they are today. We all have a story to tell, and perhaps their story will resonate with yours and make you realise that you are never alone. We are all pathfinders finding our way in the world. Today's guest is someone who is incredibly well respected in the financial services industry and is a leading light and role model for many women in finance. Esther Dijkstra has been at Lloyds Banking Group for almost a decade now. Formerly director of Strategic Partnerships and now the managing director of intermediaries. Esther began her career in management consultancy with IBM in the Netherlands and moved to the UK in 2000. She previously worked for Legal in General, where she was commercial and marketing director at the Network and UK Mortgage Club and has been described as one of the best managers I have worked for in my 25 year career by a previous employee. To say I have always enjoyed Esther's company is an understatement. Intelligent, articulate, passionate. Authentic and, well, good fun, actually. So I'm delighted to have her with me today. This is the Pathfinder podcast, May the path you take be the right one for you. Hello, Esther.

Esther: [00:02:31] Hello. Oh, thank you. That's such a lovely introduction. That was.

Monty: [00:02:34] I was quite proud of that introduction.

Esther: [00:02:36] That's cute. Yeah. Um, now I have to live up to it, though.

Monty: [00:02:41] I'm sure you will. There's no pressure, no chat amongst friends. No one's listening. Don't worry. Um, so I always start off with the same question, actually, which is just. How are you?

Esther: [00:02:53] Yeah, I'm good. What's going on at the moment? Well, I'm a little bit wet because I've been cycling to the just cycle through the studios because in my quest for being better to the environment, I've decided to cycle when I'm in London. That's very impressive. Yeah. And you have to kind of commit to it because if you think, oh, it's a bit windy, rainy, then you don't do it. So because it always is certainly.

Monty: [00:03:19] Windy rainy.

Esther: [00:03:20] Day. So but no, otherwise I'm really good. Thank you.

Monty: [00:03:24] Good. I'd like to be able to cycle actually, but I get too nervous. Yeah, you get scared of the traffic in London. Am I just.

Esther: [00:03:32] No, I totally. I totally get it. It's. But I'm Dutch, so, like, cycling is in my blood, as it were. It genuinely is. And I must say, the first time I went on the bike in London, I was like, Oh, I've really missed this. And it was just really nice. And it's a very yeah, it's a very good way if you're confident to go around the city and I know my way now, I find my way with the traffic, so it's easier for me. I wouldn't say it's for everybody. Give it a go if you. Yeah.

Monty: [00:04:03] Yeah, I'll try it. I'm on the peloton now so that's.

Esther: [00:04:06] Oh yes that's that's a good start.

Monty: [00:04:09] Yeah. So anyway, we're not here to talk about cycling. So you're very important these days. You've always been very important. But do you want to give us a flavour of what your what your job entails now? Is there, is there a typical day and and how how do you manage your time?

Esther: [00:04:27] Oh, very good questions. Um, so what the job entails is it's quite a broad role intermediaries in Lloyds Banking Group because A there are multiple brands, so it's both the Halifax Beam Solutions and Scottish Widows Bank. So it goes across a lot of the market residential buy to let and you know the specialist sector to a certain extent as well and but then I also have all the supporting functions like some operations in there, you know, broker onboarding, etcetera, marketing. But I also have the housing development team who look after the major relationships, after the relationships with the major builders, which is another big part. And I guess that's what the role really is, is to look at housing rather than just mortgages or just the brands and making sure that, you know, for me, ultimately we would want everybody in the UK to live in a quality, sustainable home that that's as simple as it is. Be that because people could be in social housing in the private rented sector or owner occupiers, and that's basically what I try to do with with a lot, you know, with a very good team.

Esther: [00:05:47] And in terms of my days, well, you know, it's every week is a different week. I still I still really like to go out and see brokers. So I do that, you know, most weeks as well, because I do feel because I was on the stand the other week at one of the major conferences, I won't name any name. And it's just really good because you can quite easily when you work for a big corporate and have a big important role that you never get down, you know, that's where it really matters. That's where it really happens. All I do is, you know, ultimately, hopefully influence some people to to change that conversation, you know, between a broker and a customer and, you know, getting the customers minds of how they can get onto the housing ladder. So every day is different. Every week is different. And I have a very supportive team. And, you know, we just carve out what what the priorities are. There are some set meetings, but then there's a lot of travel and a lot of, you know, different things.

Monty: [00:06:53] Do you have like quick stand up meetings?

Esther: [00:06:55] Oh, I wish. No, no, in that sense. Well, we're trying to really change that sort of culture of too many committees, etcetera, and do a lot for our teams in that sense, which I do think drives a bit more efficiency because you kind of go through an agenda at pace, not sure if it's always effective. That's a big thing for me because you, you, it's a different impact, different thing. So, uh, no. Yeah, a mixture. Mixture of everything.

Monty: [00:07:29] Okay. So as you know, this podcast is all about journeys, the path you've taken along the way. Um, and I always start with early life and family background. And so you grew up in the Netherlands? Yeah. Uh, so can you paint a picture of what that was like? Was it was it typical town or was it rural or what was very rural?

Esther: [00:07:52] Was it? Yeah. So I'm from the ruralist, if that's a word. Part of. Yeah, part of the Netherlands. Um, yeah. Think more Wales. Yes. Yeah. So very tiny village I think in that like 2000 well first bit was in a slightly bigger village, about 20,000 people. And then we moved to a tiny village with 2000 people. So it was very rural, very small country girl. Country girl, yeah. Country bumpkin. And I still have in Dutch Really an accent. I do, Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's really interesting. I have that in English as well. So you know, you know, keep a common thread. Yeah.

Monty: [00:08:35] So what was growing up in, in like then. What was little girl Esther like?.

Esther: [00:08:40] Yeah well my parents were they had their own business so they sold electrical goods, you know, back. That was the big era of that. And that's, I think, why also I still like that sort of entrepreneurial business feel because I remember that. But my mum always worked. She worked six days a week because the shop was open on Saturdays as well. And so they were both hard workers from that perspective. But my mum in particular, because she still also did everything in the house, the childcare, the cooking, the washing, the, you know. So it was, yeah, a real role model in that sense. And I think I was always very determined and always very, I kind of knew from a very young age that that village roads actually were too small for me. I had that zest for adventure, wanted to get out. Um, and I was also so from an early age, I think if you can say that quite clever. I just love to read. I love numbers. So I didn't, you know, when girlfriends would do friends were doing like things with beads, creative things, right? I would just make rows and sequences and, you know, patterns and stuff like that. So I was never yeah, I was never and I never had that whole, you know, a lot of even as we grew up sort of talking about wanting to get married or stuff, I never had that. That was like, No, no way. I was fiercely independent.

Monty: [00:10:23] I was going to say very independent.

Esther: [00:10:25] Very independent, very adventurous and very driven.

Monty: [00:10:29] Did you have.

Esther: [00:10:29] Brothers or sisters? I have an older brother, yeah. And he's completely the opposite. Is he?

Monty: [00:10:34] Yes, he's. He's the creative one.

Esther: [00:10:36] No, no, actually, no. We have no creative. No, we completely skipped that in the family. No, he's actually quite technical. Right. But he sort of married his, you know, secondary school sweetheart. Never moved, you know, lived sort of next door to where we grew up. Whilst, you know, we'll talk about probably later what happened to the family. So everybody left the area except my brother, who rooted down very, very young, never moved still, you know, very. Yeah, sort of, yeah. So in that sense, very opposite and probably a bit more relaxed than I am because I'm a very driven, driven person. Um, so yeah, and that was always, I guess, in my DNA.

Monty: [00:11:19] So what, what did you want to be then? What sort of the first thing you remember you wanted to be.

Esther: [00:11:24] Well, the very first thing, very first thing is I wanted to be a prima ballerina.

Monty: [00:11:31] I remember you telling me that.

Esther: [00:11:32] Yeah. So I did try for the academy, and I first got in just after primary school. However, at that point my mum said because I was also selected for a selective grammar school. Yeah, just call that the equivalent. And I think my mum thought yeah, do I, does she become a ballet teacher or do I want her to get a, you know, a university degree. So she said well maybe next year. So I then did a year in the grammar school, then went again for the audition and they said they had a conversation. Well, this is at least what my mum has taught me because I wasn't privy of the conversation. I'm still convinced that they wanted me as a prima ballerina, but according to my mum they had said that I wasn't talented enough to become the prima, but that I could become a teacher. At which point my mum said, No, you're staying at the school and just have it as a hobby. Um, but yeah, I still do ballet and I was actually in a show. Do it. Yeah, I was actually in a show last Sunday in a little festival. Yeah. In one of the smaller, smaller theatres doing a classical piece, so.

Monty: [00:12:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love to see that. So you can still go on your tippy toes and.

Esther: [00:12:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still can do that. But don't you know to, to set the expectations. This is sort of a group of 50 plus ladies who just have a lot of fun. And, you know, we do value our art and we're quite serious about it. We do realize a lot. But yeah, so.

Monty: [00:13:06] So that's a lot of discipline and fitness and yeah, yeah.

Esther: [00:13:10] Flexibility. Yeah. So yeah, yeah.

Monty: [00:13:13] That's really good. There you go. You learned something already.

Esther: [00:13:17] Yeah, but that was the first thing I really wanted. And then very soon after that didn't happen. I always wanted to be the captain of the Rainbow Warrior. For those of you who don't know, that's the one of the Greenpeace ships. Yeah. And I really. I was the one.

Monty: [00:13:34] That's the one that got sunk.

Esther: [00:13:35] It did, but they have a new one. Um, so, yeah, and still, I think still one day. I would like that. Yes. Yes.

Monty: [00:13:45] So the whole green agenda and Greenpeace. That's very close to your heart.

Esther: [00:13:49] Yeah, it was. And I was thinking about why, why that was. But my mom was, was already a bit into it, you know, very into, you know, growing her own food and healthy stuff. And although they also had their diesel cars standing, you know, on the drive to be fair. But no, but even with that she was always taking a bike. If you can, you know, walk if you can. She was quite conscious, I would say, in that space. So I think it was partly that and partly the animals. I've always loved animals as well. So, you know, when you're younger, that's sort of what appeals as well, rescuing polar bears and, you know, that sort of lovely. Yeah. So I did demonstrate with Greenpeace when the when they wanted to drill in the Arctic. So I was part here of the big demonstration and. Excellent. Yeah. Still try and do my bit. Yeah. Good.

Monty: [00:14:44] So you mentioned you were very driven From where, where do you think that that came from?

Esther: [00:14:50] Yeah, it's quite interesting. I think it's, it's innate. It's sort of in me and I think it's I don't know if perfectionists are born or if that is something in your early childhood that you just if I really break it down, if we really go like a psychological I guess it's probably my father was a typical, you know, quite high. How do you say that? Perhaps not the most friendliest person. Very sort of, yeah. Hard upbringing. Yeah. You know, probably down from how his upbringing was so very. You were never good enough. That was basically what it was. You were never good enough. And he was very shouty as well. So there was a lot of, you know, you lazy, blah blah, blah. Um, and I think, you know, my reaction to that probably was to become, you know, to overachieve. Whilst I think my brother that we briefly mentioned probably decided not to fight it at all, if you see what I mean. And sort of yeah, yeah. I'm seeing.

Monty: [00:16:02] A lot of parallels in my.

Esther: [00:16:03] Family. Yeah, Yeah. So and I think that that was just me was just always trying to please in that sense him Um, and yeah. And do better, do more, do better, go higher. And then yeah, if you reflect, if you set your own standards, which is what I do. Yeah. And you set them very high, that's then when you always try to achieve more so and it's sort of yeah, um, this is a really funny thing, you know, we all grow up thinking we're super unique because that's what you do as a human. And I found out I wasn't unique when my daughter got Lego friends and Lego friends is has characters with stories. And one of the Lego characters was me. She's a ballerina and the Horserider. I'm also a horse rider and the one who doesn't hang out with the girly girl friends doing the hair and doing the singing and the, you know, the makeup and the beads and the one who's a little bit, you know, on the side. And yeah, that was me.

Monty: [00:17:10] That's So you have your own Lego friends character?

Esther: [00:17:15] Yeah. Well, yeah.

Monty: [00:17:17] Yeah. Not many people can say that.

Esther: [00:17:19] Yeah, well, I think you'll find that it's based on a lot of people. So that's when I realized, Oh, yeah, it's not just me anyway. Yeah.

Monty: [00:17:27] So you said that your biggest influence was your mother. I read and. Yeah. And a great example of combining work, family. And I read somewhere you said being fearless, authentic and staying curious. Is that similar to how you've approached your life and your career then?

Esther: [00:17:44] Yeah, I am. I'm so grateful for that. She was that in that sense, that role model within, I guess, the constraints of her time because she was still, you know, um, yeah. Left. Well, basically you were sacked in your first job because she was a carer for, for and then they start, well she did the combined role of and running the business and caring in the early days of the business. So she was like working in the shop, you know, from nine till four and then yeah, putting I think she taught me my brother had to go to bed at 6 p.m. because she then had to do an evening shift as a nurse still. Wow. And then sleep a couple of hours and repeat and do that six days a week. So that was pretty big investment full on. Um, but, but I think she did it in the constraints of her time. What I mean by that is she probably, you know, if she Yeah. Had been able to be more independent or whatever, I think she would have done even more with her life. But there were, yeah. Expectations, constraints and Yeah, but she was always her she would not conform to um, you know, because all the shopkeepers in the village had a certain, particularly the wife's off because that was still how it was structured in the 80 seconds. You know, go to the hairdresser every week and sort of have certain images and and there's nothing wrong with that. But my mum just didn't conform with that. And she was just her and, you know, um, did the things she wanted, um, and was very adventurous and that's, yeah, definitely allowed me to look for that freedom. So I knew straight away once I'd done the grammar school. I want to go away from here. Yeah, go to big city and then travel the world and yeah, that's what I did. And yeah, you know, in that sense it gave me that freedom to do that.

Monty: [00:19:39] Yeah, it's really interesting. So bright lights, big city. What was your what were your first jobs? And you went to Amsterdam and.

Esther: [00:19:49] Yes, yeah. So I studied economics, as I said, always good with numbers and then traveled for a year around the world. So that was a great experience. And then landed in Amsterdam because you've then seen the world. Um, and my first job there was basically to earn money was sort of a combination of receptionist PR at a you would now call it a well, it was a startup tech firm. It was doing, um, they actually did all the internet cables and what have you ever which was, which was probably, you know, my I was very overqualified for the job but it was a small business. It had 20 people when I started because I did the phone list as well. That was wonderful. And I think by the time I left, it was sort to KPN, like one of the bigger and it had about 150 people. But I just had a great time in Amsterdam, if I'm really honest. That's why I might not have as vigorously applied for jobs because it was just a great culture, great young team and, you know, growing business and we would just go out a lot of nights and yeah. And then after sort of 6 to 9 months, I was like, Oh yeah, no, I need to I need to do something serious. So that's when I went to IBM because they had at the time, um, a lot of the management consultancy, they were setting up the services division and growing that. And so they were doing academies where you could, uh, you know, roll in, get your training, and then you would be placed as a management consultant. So that's what I did then.

Monty: [00:21:31] So, so when did you make the move from there into or was that, was that before you came to the UK?

Esther: [00:21:39] Yeah, it was already in IBM because even though you're a management consultant, they say, which sector do you have the most affiliation with? Okay. And for me that was they called it bancassurance because in the Netherlands at the time, all the banks also had insurance companies. So I was immediately went into the bancassurance sector. So so I did like stints as an analyst, etcetera in insurance companies and banks and proposals for, you know, yeah, that sort of work. So I was straight away because I had, you know, because I was an economist, it made a lot of sense to, yeah. Be associated with that sector than anything else. So that's, I already got into that, um, into that sector, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Monty: [00:22:28] And so when was, when did you decide to come to come here. Yeah. What was that decision.

Esther: [00:22:35] Yeah. So that's a big move. It is and it's a bit of a well it's, it's a bit of a disappointing answer maybe, but then an. Interesting journey as it was. So, um, my my husband, who I met at uni and went travelling with, etcetera, he got a job in Amsterdam, literally, you know, temp job with a bank, ABN Amro, and he had a law degree and so he just did, you know, contract law effectively. But it was in sort of a tiny unit. I think there were only three people, and that was actually investment banking. Right? Oh, wow. So in the London office, they noticed him and they needed more people because this is the heydays of investment banking. And they said, oh, why don't you come over? So he wanted to do that, but this is when we were 25 and and when I just had started at IBM. But my father had died the day before I started. Okay. He had a heart attack. So that was. Yeah, Yeah. So that was it. So I was still not in a good space, if you see what I mean. Because even though you're, you know, I was, Yeah. Living, you know, on my own and had a job and not dependent, it was still a bit of a shock when you're, you know, it's still relatively young, you don't realise that, but you have no peers who. So I was still sort of going through that process of, you know, landing all of that. And also my parents, um, had separated a bit before that. So, you know, there was a winding up of all the estate etcetera. So yeah, so I wasn't ready to move. So he moved to the UK and that was probably one of the toughest years because I was still processing the grief. And then, you know, he was over in the UK and he was in this London world of and it truly was, as you've seen in the films.

Monty: [00:24:39] What year.

Esther: [00:24:40] Was that? So that must have been 98, right? 98. 99. Yeah.

Monty: [00:24:47] So it was like a slightly tamer wolf of Wall Street.

Esther: [00:24:50] Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was a little bit like that. There was a lot of champagne and, you know, that sort of stuff. So but I had, of course, no idea of what that world was like. So there was a lot of, you know, it was quite hard because we tried to see each other every other weekend. But when you have no feel for each other, you know, for his world and I was still dealing, you know, that was slightly messy years. So after that year, I was like, Yeah, this is make or break. So I was like, Fine, I'll move to London. Um, so I talked to my boss at IBM in the Netherlands and he said, Oh, we want to keep you there is an IBM there, see if you can get some interviews. So I got some interviews and they then just transferred me over effectively when I was successful. So I continued in the actually that was the insurance sector at the time because they had it split in the UK. Um, yeah. Where I continued my consultancy days.

Monty: [00:25:46] So how did you find that going from where you were to the the London lifestyle? And yeah.

Esther: [00:25:54] It was, it was exciting, but the first year was really tough as well because when you move countries A, you know, there are cultural differences, even though the Dutch and the English are very close.

Monty: [00:26:09] Yeah, we are quite similar, right?

Esther: [00:26:11] It's similar, but still very, very different. So you have to learn a lot of things. And London is a phenomenal city, but it's also a hard city. You know, you have to. Yeah, make your own way if you see what I mean. It's not a very friendly city. It's not like you're landing in a village where people will make you. Hi. Hi. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to work at making friends, finding your space, you know, getting to grips with it or. And, you know, with the job. And and particularly in a company like IBM, you know, 99% of the people in a company like that are there to make a career. They all have good educations. They're all so it's quite a competitive environment, a high pressured environment. And, you know, so it was it was I found it hard. Yeah. But also really exhilarating. I do remember moments when I was walking in London, and this is, you know, the little country girl reflecting on, wow, I'm in this big metropol. Yeah. And I felt freedom because I remember walking around and thinking, no one knows where I am. And it doesn't matter what you look like, doesn't matter who you are. It that it gave me, in that sense, an enormous feeling of freedom and opportunity.

Monty: [00:27:28] That's brilliant. I really like that. And then. And then what was your career path? From then.

Esther: [00:27:36] So in consultancy, they I mean, it's phenomenal what they do in terms of training you. So they invest a lot in their people in terms of skills, but hard skills, soft skills. So I had about 4 or 5 years of lots of, you know. Yeah. Training in terms of programme management, in terms of, you know, writing skills or influencing styles, all sorts of and did, you know, projects that were really interesting with big insurance companies, big banks, etcetera. But then after five years I realised you kind of then need to really get into the career consultancy. So that means a lot of, um, it was still in those days very hierarchical. So you have to do a lot of, um, you know, working with more seniors and doing stuff for them. And I, yeah, I wasn't fantastic at that. I would say I always had my own opinion, so I kind of realized it was time to, to make a change. And they had they do that quite often because they like new, new people to come in as well. So they did a big voluntary redundancy. So I put my hand up, you know, got some money and then went into the industry as of course. So and that's how I ended up with legal in general because they were doing an intake. This will make you laugh of bright young things.

Monty: [00:29:10] I'm sure you were a bright young thing.

Esther: [00:29:12] So so that's how I yeah applied. You know just basically sift through lots of CVS interview people and um and I started there and change because that's the, the, the most closest sort of when you've done consulting is change management. So that was, uh, how I got introduced first into the broker market effectively because that was for, it was the IFA team at the time, because this was 2003. So that was even pre mcorp days, um, where, you know, remember businesses were still Yeah. Doing both wealth and yeah. Mortgages as well. So it was more an IFA type division where I was the change manager and I got a change team to, you know, make things better for brokers. And I do, I will apologize to if there is any broker listening to was a bit overconfident maybe came walked into I won't name the name of the firm big firm and just went like you know, hi let me let me tell you how to run your firm because I'm you know.

Monty: [00:30:21] But look, you can come into mine and do that any day. I think that's what I need.

Esther: [00:30:26] So yeah, there was so occasionally some feedback. Hope, you know, that's brilliant. Yeah.

Monty: [00:30:31] And then and then from there to Lloyds Banking Group.

Esther: [00:30:35] Yeah. So in legal in general, I had a really rich career in terms of they were very good at supporting if you wanted, you know, to, to move on and do different things. So I then got into account management a bit more change again and then started getting bigger, bigger roles. Definitely. You know, they set up that housing, which you still see a lot of today in terms of, you know, legal and general have sort of tentacles in every part of the housing market. So I was one of the first ones when that was set up to do a, um, a role there. And then Lloyds Banking Group poached me in the sense that they had entered me away because they wanted to do protection in the intermediary space. They had stopped that. I CAN'trillionEMEMBER When they stopped that and they wanted to relaunch or yeah, reintroduce. So that's when I launched Scottish Widows Protect into the market first. Yeah. So that's probably now, what, six years ago or so I would say. Yeah. Six, seven years ago. And then, um, and then Mike Jones, who I knew all the way from, you know, when I started in legal in general talking to brokers. Um, yeah, he, and then um, said, yeah, I would like you to be part of the management team. So only a couple of jobs. So that's how it. Yeah. And the rest is history. The rest is history.

Monty: [00:31:59] Yeah. So it's interesting. So, so, so Mike took you across, did you? And obviously we talk a lot about diversity, inclusivity, women in finance, etcetera, etcetera. Um, how did you find that? Did you ever feel that not just as a, as a woman but also a Dutch woman, you had to work harder where there issues were there? Was there Dutch ism? I think I can call it that. Yeah.

Esther: [00:32:27] Yeah, definitely. There definitely was. Because even remember at IBM, a good friend, mate of mine who also worked there. And I worked my socks off and, you know, and I said to him and then he was promoted. And then he was a quiet, a relaxed guy. And that was like, Andrew, tell me, you know, why is this? And he was like, Well, you're a Dutch and you're a bit, you know, extrovert and you know, you're a bit different. He said, I just fit the mold. And yeah, so I do feel I had to work a bit harder to just deliver. Always focus on on making sure I deliver. Um, now, there will have definitely been moments in my career where, yeah, where you think was that, You know, I had two children as well. So you're out of, of work for a while and it's hard, you know, when you come back to a lot of energy to find your feet again and to, um, you know, to deal with motherhood, as it were, as well. Because balancing, you know, a family and work is, is still, is still hard. So in that sense, yeah, there will have been moments. But, um, but on the other hand, I've also been someone who, you know, you have to make the most of the opportunities that are there. So I was always a firm believer in you create your own path. Yes, I have to work harder, but you just go and do it. So that's what I did. And there are people that support you. And Mike is an example of someone who's always, always supported me and was very adamant as well, wanting me in in certain roles. And Gary Burchett and Legal and General was another one of those people who always, you know, made sure, yeah, that I was looked after and yeah. Got progression. Yeah.

Monty: [00:34:16] It's interesting. Most people's stories. There's always a couple of key people who see something in someone a little bit different. And it's interesting because I look at our environment and my business and, and what we do and, and obviously I've never been in a corporate environment. I'm not sure I'd do very well in a corporate environment. Like you have my own opinion. Um, and actually we, we look out for someone who's, who's different, who thinks differently, who's, um, a little bit impatient to get to certain levels. That's, that's sort of what we look for rather than someone who just wants to plod along and fit the mould, so to speak. So, so it does seem to be very different.

Esther: [00:35:01] Yeah, it is. I think I guess you get that as well in a corporate, but it's, it's, you know, because it's a bigger system and it is a pyramid shaped in that sense. You do have that competition almost. Yeah. Yeah. And that that that maybe you know there for people and we all do it you are a bit more inclined to recruit, uh, you know, someone who is similar to you because you do have to work with them an awful lot of hours.

Monty: [00:35:31] So I've never recruit anyone similar to me. Okay. Nightmare. Yeah. Yeah.

Esther: [00:35:37] I guess. Yeah, but you tend to still sneakily do. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is an unconscious bias. And, um, I think that was more prevalent sort of ten years ago. I think a lot, you know, in that sense, things have changed in the last five years.

Monty: [00:35:56] Yeah. So it's good. Things are changing. So. So what advice would you give to Young? Females looking into this industry or thinking, Oh, there's no way I can balance motherhood and and work and get to where I want to get to.

Esther: [00:36:10] Yeah, it's oh, lots of tips. But you have to believe in yourself because that is, you know, because only you can believe in yourself. So that's where it starts and but definitely go for it. I see a lot of women that hold themselves back a bit because they are worried about, you know, mixing it, etcetera. And I would say go for it because you can always go back. I know that's, you know, not something people want to do, but it's not that bad if you say, Hey, I tried and it wasn't for me. Yeah. Um, so I definitely say give it a go. And then I have loads of other tips like, you know, be shameless in asking for support. Support because you need it, particularly when you have a family. So I reached out to, you know, and it partly helps that I'm Dutch so I don't have to, you know, some of the cultural inhibitions that some British people might have in asking for help or approaching it. But I would just ask every, you know, from neighbours to family members to, you know, people at the school gates, work colleagues, just, yeah, just ask for support in whichever way, you know, do a pickup. Can they, you know, come over, do some food shopping, whatever it is. Um, definitely. It helps to I've always got myself a mentor or a coach or whatever you want to call it, always.

Esther: [00:37:36] It was partly because it's one of the things in management consultancy they train you in to say, you know, make sure you have got your stakeholders, as it were, for, you know, to if you look at yourself as your own business as the Dijkstra PLC to get a good group around you so some people who can. Yeah. Support you, sponsor you. Um, yeah. But mentor you, coach you and that's I think that really helps as well so that you have people who look, who help you look after your career and then you have people who can help you look after the sort of, Yeah. The nuts and bolts of family life. Yeah. And then look after yourself. That's a big one as well. So, um, and I had to draw my lines quite clearly. You know, there were a couple of moments, um, I remember where meetings would come in, you know, after five, and there was a whole period in my career where I couldn't because I was doing my husband was doing the mornings and I did, you know, um, yeah, uh, we had au pairs. We had every form of childcare you can imagine. So but it meant I had to leave sort of the city when you still worked in the office at five.

Esther: [00:38:48] And I just had to say I just had to decline the meetings and I just had to be brutal about it. Yeah. And I remember getting a phone call. I won't name the manager one saying, um, because clearly it was tipped off that I had declined this meeting and tried to find someone else to cover it if I was not. Um, yeah. Like taking the topic serious enough or something like that. And I just had to be very sort of clear to say, Listen, I'm really sorry, you know, I might log on in the evenings again or if that's necessary, but I need to leave at five. I can't do the call. I'm really sorry. It's just what it is. And, you know, take it or leave it. And it was fine. I think they realized, okay, of course, because some if people don't have that responsibility, they don't realize the practicalities of it. Yeah. And I said, in an emergency I can stay, but I can't do that to the au pair or the nanny or the childminder or whoever I had at that point in time to. Yeah, to, to always be, you know, late. Et cetera. Because, you know, that's not fair to them. So. And when you explain that, I think people get that. People get that.

Monty: [00:39:58] Yeah, I think so. A lot more so now than probably even five years ago, actually. So. One of the best managers I've ever had. That's pretty good. So how would you describe your management style and what makes a good manager? And to that end, a good leader, I guess. Um, are you are you direct? Because obviously the, the Dutch I know from watching a lot of footballers who are Dutch, they tend to be. And the Dutch national team, if you look at football, they always tend to argue with each other because they're very direct. Um, is that you or are you more empathetic or. And, and how have you changed your management style?

Esther: [00:40:44] It's good that you ask that. Um, so yeah, I, you know. I, I think the real key of leadership is you have to believe in your people and you have to agree, you know, and you have to trust them. And that's easier said than done. People might say, oh, that's really obvious. Well, it's not because you really genuinely have obvious.

Monty: [00:41:07] To say, but obvious to actually hard.

Esther: [00:41:09] To do. Yeah. Um, so that for me is one of the core things because that means you are a lot less controlling, involved setting, you know, because I, yeah, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I have a phenomenal leadership team that, you know, will. Yeah. Will run their own businesses if you see what I mean. But um, yeah, but it didn't all start that way. And I will tell you a funny story. So when I came, this was when I first came into legal in general because I came through the management consultancy, very career driven people, etcetera, didn't manage a lot of people there. So that was started at legal and general, and I was still my driven self and I quite quickly I had a little sort of corner office and I was nicknamed the Bitch in the corner, so. Oh yeah, yeah. I know that when I found out that it hurt a little bit and I quite quickly realized that with me sort of stomping in and saying I, you know, sharing freely, sharing my opinions, that people weren't really warming to that, that that was not how how you make people, you know. Yeah, yeah. It was a harsh lesson. So a very, very quickly learned because you have to mention, you know, that was at that time still an insurance company where people largely had jobs for 30, 40 years and they would, you know, every day come in, do their little thing, be really proud of that and, you know, have their own stapler with their name on and, you know, stuff like that.

Esther: [00:42:51] So now I came in there, you know, sort of whirlwind of, oh, yeah, we need to think much more ambitiously and blah blah, you know? And of course that was always going to be a bit tricky. And so I learned very, very fast, Oh, that's not how you motivate people. So I really and I think it's I'm very grateful for it because I think in my, you know, zest for yeah, that sort of what we talked about before achieving things and being very driven and setting very high standards, that empathy side had probably sort of taken a back seat. And I then realized, Oh yeah, actually I don't like that. I want, I don't want to be known as the bitch in the corner and yeah, and I find people really interesting. So let's just focus more on that. And that's what I started to do to, you know, show a real interest in people rather than focus on what's the task.

Monty: [00:43:49] But an authentic one rather than Yes.

Esther: [00:43:51] Yeah, yeah. I think I always had that because if you're me, you kind of kind of have to be me or otherwise. Trying to make it different never really worked. Yeah. No, try that. A tiny one didn't work. Um, so, yeah, so I just, you know, was and I was naturally interested in people curious in that sense. And that's how I then learned. Oh yeah. That, that does, you know, if you connect with people and see how they what they want and yeah, um, support them in getting wherever they want to get to, whatever that is that, yeah, that works a lot better.

Monty: [00:44:30] Yeah. That comes across in drives. I from the very moment I met you, you were just down to earth and honest, and it's so refreshing. That really comes across. Thank you. Yeah. We're going great guns, I think. I'm not sure we've got that much time left. There's so much I could ask you, but I was interested in a couple of things and actually asked Richard, my last guest this. I'm quite interested in what your response would be. So what is your definition of success? Where do you where do you feel actually, you can look back and go, yeah, that was. I've I've made it. Or someone who's driven to achieve. Where's where does that where does that stop? It's a very.

Esther: [00:45:20] Good question, but a bit of an irritating one, isn't it? Yeah, because when you're sort of driven, you almost don't want to stop. Yeah, no, exactly.

Monty: [00:45:28] Exactly.

Esther: [00:45:28] It's, um. You know what? I pondered about it a lot, and then I thought, I don't know. And this is why the podcast is great how you set it up. It's more about the journey. Yeah. And joy is in the journey and that's what I try to do more and more is just enjoy what I'm doing. I do think it's really important that you keep connecting to the deeper why. And I think if I look at my career, I think initially it was independence because I needed that the shackles of the little village. But also, um, you know, when my parents divorced, my mum didn't have any assets in her name, so she then had to work really hard to build up a life again. So I realised, yeah, I wanted that independence. So that was first what drove me. And then I think when my father died I didn't realise how important roots in a home are. So I think that made that connection with, if you look at where I am now, there is some real logic, some real deeper whys in there, why I'm driven. And then I think now it's a lot more about, you know, I have a daughter, a son as well.

Esther: [00:46:39] But, you know, and I a lot of my friends have come to me and said, Esther, you can do it. You know, you've got, you know, the education, the career to. Yeah. Be that role model for a lot of women, for our daughters to, you know, to, to. Yeah. And that's what drives me a lot now it's sort of, you know, supporting. Yeah. And the whole wider for me it's not just about gender, it's just, yeah. In my life that, that fits very well. Um, but yeah, for me that's an important driver and I don't think there's an end to that, if you see what I mean. Who knows? Yeah. And I, I think I've learned I used to be someone who looks a lot ahead and I think, you know, you can plan whatever you want, but life will throw and weave. In the last three years, we've definitely seen that. Yeah. Not just, you know, it's. Yeah, the world is such a different place now, so just enjoy it. Enjoy the ride.

Monty: [00:47:45] It's good advice. Enjoy the ride. Um, so what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Esther: [00:47:53] Um, well, yeah, I'm not sure That's for the camera or for. For the. For the recording. Um, in terms of, um, no, I it is again, one that's easy to say, but not so easy to do. But it is. Be yourself, be authentic. That just and, but that's harder when you don't fit the mold. So yeah um I get that. I remember, you know, crying once for a boss and, um, he was a bit shocked and he was trying to sort of, you know, he responded well, but then he was a bit like, you know, maybe you shouldn't do that. And I was like, Well, that's me. That's, you know, you just have to. Yeah, embrace that and be, you know, even in those. Yeah, Yeah.

Monty: [00:48:41] So and final question. If you could meet one person in history alive or dead, who would it be and what would you ask them?

Esther: [00:48:55] Well, I thought about that, and I think it's one of those questions where I think, no, I don't want to go back in history. I reflect, but no history for me sort of done. I like looking forward in the future, but actually I like to live more in the moment. So I want to be here with you and enjoy the moment. That's brilliant because you've done great as well, so that should be celebrated as well.

Monty: [00:49:21] That's the best answer. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, I've really enjoyed this. Thank you. And thank you for being so open and so Esther.

Esther: [00:49:30] Thank you. Thank you so much.

Monty: [00:49:31] Much. So thank you very much. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. If you like this, do pass it on to others. Please leave a review in your chosen podcast app. We have lots more fun, exciting, interesting guests to come over the course of the rest of this year.

Monty: [00:49:48] And I'm sure you'll be interested to hear their stories and their journeys and the paths they've taken to get where they are today.

Monty: [00:49:54] This is the Pathfinder.

Monty: [00:49:56] Podcast made the path you take be the right one for you.